Based on the observations you made during the video "Troy" please comment on those attributes you found to be both "desirable" and "undesirable" in Homeric Greek Culture. Please use examples from the film to back up your point!!!
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ReplyDeletehomer did not value greed. Agamemnon wanted to make Troy his own even though he lost many men trying to breach the walls. Despite finally getting into Troy, Agamemnon was killed.
ReplyDeleteHomer found belief in honor to be desirable. Those who followed the code of it were rewarded with fortune and those who ignored it were viewed was rogues with no value. An internal struggle in Achilles is highligted, should he return the body to the Troy and be honorable or should he seek revenge and defile it.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Homer did not value weakness. Much like the Spartan society, those who were regarded as week were worthless and incompetent. Military strength was highly respected throughout the Illiad. Military strength also includes the willingness to fight for and possibly die for your city-state. This is evident when Achilles' mother was encouraging him to go to war; she would rather her son go to war and be killed than stay at home as a coward. Another quality that Homer valued was respect. When Achilles killed Hector in battle and did not give him the proper burial, he was disrespecting Hector's father and the Greek burial traditions.
ReplyDeleteOne can argue that cunning was valued as much as strength. It took more than just military strength to win the battle of Troy. Odysseus was the one who got them into Troy by thinking up the Trojan Horse. He outsmarted his enemies instead of physically beating them.
ReplyDeleteConner that is a great point...and both contribute to one overall theme, which is of course, Arete.
ReplyDeleteI agree that military strength doesn't always necessarily mean physical strength. Odysseus' contributions to the Trojan military revolved around wisdom instead of slaying his opponents.
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ReplyDeleteI believe that adaptability was a desirable attribute in Homeric Greek culture because if you couldn't win the battle with what you had, you could change your tactics and end up winning. This was demonstrated by Odysseus coming up with the idea of a Trojan horse and in turn winning the battle. I also believe that in Homeric Greek culture stupidity was seen as a weakness. I believe this because pure strength may win some battles but proper tactics will give you a much greater advantage rather than just brute force.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus thinking up the Trojan horse was an extremely significant part of Western culture-and even nonhuman things such as this horse possess Arete.This excellence was the most wanted thing during this time by the people, they desired to have Arete.Arete could be shown through skill in battle, this is why many Greeks went to Troy(most specifically Achilles). Being triumphant in battle and showing heroic qualities is desired to acheive Arete.
ReplyDeleteJVJ and Lauren, you both bring up good points. I think you can argue that excellence is above all else the most important thing and that both brute force AND adaptibility can be viewed as positive as both Odysseus and Achillies reflect.
ReplyDeleteHomer obviously valued tomfoolery and shenaniganz. He just cared about having a good time. This is obvious and all of you guys are wrong. Ok maybe I'm just kidding but seriously...
ReplyDeleteI think that Homer valued honor, nobility and integrity. Ever time Odysseus talked about fighting for honor and not the well-being of the state he was portrayed in a negative light. Also, when Paris was about to run out of the city he appeared weak and looked like a wuss. It was very noble of him to stay and fight.
After Odysseus' cousin died Odysseus was clearly upset. He had finally realized how terrible war was and that he is taking away somebody else's cousin, someone else's son. He agreed to the funeral games and retained some morals and integrity. He redeemed himself.
Caleb (I assume you meant Achillies not Odysseus) - I think you are right, it was a powerful moment when Achillies came to terms with the "reality" of what affect his life has had upon other Hellenes.
ReplyDeleteI agree with matt, The number one thing that was on the minds of many of those "heroes" was their honor. That is the thing that was their drive, they wanted their country to win but they also wanted there name to be remember. Like achillies mom, she asked him if he would rather fight and have his name rememebered for many years to come or if he was going to just sit around and let his honor slip away.
ReplyDeleteCowardice was obviously an undesirable trait in Homeric Greek culture. Paris was the epitome of cowardice in "Troy." In Greek culture, the men were to be soldiers and Paris couldn't even fight one battle for himself. He had to have Hector protect him. I believe Homer viewed Paris as weak and fearful. Cowardice was a shameful attribute to have and was looked down upon by many.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Julia, cowardice was definitely not valued in Homeric Greek culture. Loyalty is a quality that was expected of Greek Soldiers. The Greeks believed that you should first be loyal to your family (oikos), followed by your city-state. In the movie Troy, every soldier was fighting to protect their oikos.
ReplyDeleteGoing along with some of the other comments about Arete, I wanted to add that for Greeks, competition was better than cooperation. They wanted to fight for their honor, rather than work together.
From the move Troy, it is obvious that cowardice is not a desirable value to Homer, although people such as Paris did have this characteristic. And it is believed to be an honor to die in battle. Although Paris was a coward and crawled away from his fight, he ended up killing Achilles in the end. so does that mean that if you run away and fight like a little girl, you can end up being the big winner? I think not because even though Paris ended up killing Achilles, he's not seen as a hero like Achilles is even though he was killed.
ReplyDeleteAs was shown in the movie, Homer valued many noble characteristics, which include: Honor, duty, bravery, and personal sacrifice as was shown through the most noble of characters, Hector. Parental love and loyalty was shown by Hectors father (Priam) in putting up with Paris' foolish, and selfish, decision to bring back Helen. They welcomed Helen and were willing to defend her, even at the cost of their glorious city of Troy. This shows how compassionate and supportive Priam was with the decisions his son made.
ReplyDeleteI think that in Homeric Greek Culture that military prowess was valued. I think this because before Achillies left for Troy he talked about how he wanted to be remembered by everyone as time went on and not just by his sons.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the concept of "Arete" was the most important aspect of Greek culture, and through this honor and nobility were probably the most ideal traits a greek citizen could have. For example, Hector(probably the most noble character in the Illiad), lives by this code and follows it till his death. He fights honorably and cunningly in battle, even defeating larger foes in battle. Even with this concept of Arete, there were also some undesirable traits in Greek culture. Paris's cowardnice is very evident in the Illiad, not only with his unability to grow facial hair, but with his running away from a battle he was about to lose. He needs his brother, Hector, to fight his battles for him. With this being said, i believe honor and nobility to be the most important traits in Greek culture, and cowardness to be one of the most undesirable traits in Greek culture.
ReplyDeleteI believe that reverance was found as a desirable attribute during the Homer Greek Culture because in the movie "Troy", whenever Achilles killed Hector, his father, showing great reverance for his dead son, risked his life by going great lengths to sneak into the enemy camp to convince Achilles to allow Hector the proper burial ceremony he deserved. Achilles, also having reverance for the dead, agreed and not only let him have his son back but also gave the Trojans a few days to conduct the ceremonies.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that ignorance was an undesirable attribute in Homeric Greek Culture because ignorance is, what i believe, brought down Troy. They were ignorant to think that the Greeks would pack up and leave camp in a matter of days and not only that but leave the Trojans a parting present and not only that but to then bring that "present" into the heart of their city and not only that but leave it unguarded. Idiots...
I believe Homer valued bravery and devotion. Hector is the ideal Homeric hero. He didn't back out from fightig and he was determined to fight for what he believed in. He is a direct contrast of Paris, who had little, if any, bravery. Paris was afraid to fight and was the opposite of a Homeric hero.
ReplyDeletehomer valued honor and bravery, Pairs doesn't have these traits or will never get them.
ReplyDeleteI believe it took a lot of courage for Paris to take Helen away from her husband. But sadly that was as far as his courage took him considering that he wussed out on fighting. Homer used him almost as an example of how a hero should not act. Homer put Paris in a negative light by Paris pretty much making his brother fight for him. Homer did value honor and bravery, and in showing that by comparing it with Paris.
ReplyDeletewhy will Paris "never get them"?....also, while I agree with much of what Danielle has said, maybe someone can answer whether or not, in the end - did Homer ultimately portray Paris as the hero when he stays in Troy and fights??? Open to interpretations
ReplyDeleteI believe Homer found cowardice and weakness undesirable traits. The perfect example would be Paris. Paris could not stand up and fight a battle that he himself caused. He ran and had to be protected by someone else.
ReplyDeleteBut strength and honor were valued the most overall. Hector was a strong and courageous man who protected his brother in a fight that was not his. And he fought Achilles knowing that he would not survive.
i agree with FZWrunnerchick..
ReplyDeleteAchilles response to his mother's prophecy is a defining moment in itself for achilles. he chooses glory and death, instead of fading into nothing.
this is similar to Sparta, where the women would rather their husbands die in combat for honor. Many Hellenes saw battle as the sure fire way to obtain this concept of "arete"
I do not believe that Homer portrayed Paris as the hero when he stays in Troy and fights. I don't think it was possible for him to regain honor after showing so much weakness in the earlier battle against Achilles. Although he was probably praised when he returned home for killing the mighty Achilles, I don't think he was a hero. Instead of engaging in an arduous battle and fighting valiantly, Paris chose to take the easy route. By chance, he managed to strike Achilles in his heel; his one and only weakness. Achilles had no chance to fight back. This to me does not demonstrate honor or the qualities of a hero. Instead I believe Paris was once again showing his cowardice by not actually fighting Achilles.
ReplyDeleteDEVON SAID (I moved it...:))I believe that Homer tried to show different many traits in different characters. For example, I believe that Hector was the strong and brave one. He stood up for Paris, and decided to battle against Achilles to protect Paris knowing that the chance of him winning was slim to none. Paris on the other hand I think he showed two sides... He showed cowardly traits by not "manning up" to his actions and was protected by Hector. On the other hand, after Achilles killed Hector, Paris felt it necessary to get revenge. By doing so, he shot Achilles in the back of his heal and it ended up killing him. So he was a coward for needing protection for his action... And didn't really battle of fight him like a man but at the same time he was somewhat of a hero cause he killed the man who killed Hector. And Achilles showed characteristics of being a strong, brave, noble warrior, with respect at the same time. An example of him showing respect would be, after he killed Hector, he drug his body back to his town... Which was a jerk move by the way... But when he was asked by his enemy to return the Hectors body to Troy, Achilles agreed.
ReplyDeleteKrisitn - I like (And agree with) your thinking on my question.
ReplyDeleteThe way that Paris killed Achilles definetly showed that he was a coward. He could not kill Menolaos in the sword duel which would have taken more skill and strength. In the movie it shows him shooting Achilles while he stood out of range of any of Achilles's weapons. Basically he attacked a man that was unable to protect himself. There is no challenge or skill involved in that. I think honor was also found in devotion to learning how to be an excellent warrior. A better trained warrior could defend his country, city-state, oikos.
ReplyDeleteAbby, I agree with most of what you said, but I do think that it has to be a pretty big honor to defeat what they considered the most feared warrior of this time. I would have to guess anyone of this time would love to have this honor no matter how they killed Achilles. It still takes skill to hit him.
ReplyDeleteIn Ancient Greece "Homeric Ideals" were very important. For instance, Greece went to war with Troy just to get Helen back. This showed that honor was very important to the Greeks. When Menelaus' honor was taken by Paris he wanted to take it back. On the other hand, not being able to fight was seen as undesirable. Paris was almost killed by Menelaus and Hector had to kill Menelaus in order to save his brother. Paris was then seen as weak and dishonorable. Hector was a great fighter and everyone loved him for this. He also died for his country which was honorable. Achilles was a great warrior too and he received a lot of praise for this. His pride and lack of state ship was considered dishonorable though. Agamemnon was honored because he united Greece. The movie Troy shows how influential Homeric Ideals were to Greek society.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree that Paris is weak.It takes a lot of strength to be a skilled archer. It's defnately not contact fighting but still difficult. Yes, he did stop fighting because he was about to be killed but who wants to be killed besides a Spartan...
ReplyDeleteIm going to have to disagree with you Kalina. Although it is difficult to be an archer and maybe even harder than contact fighting Paris still appeared weak. It was honorable for him to stay and fight but in Greece I believe there is more honor in fighting with your sword. Using a bow doesn't even give your opponent a chance to prove his skills. In modern terms it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Caleb and i like your analogy on that it does seem like bringing a gun to a knife fight. If Paris wanted to be honorable he would have fought Achilles head on rather than from a distance without Achilles even knowing or being able to defend himself.
ReplyDeleteCaleb, I understand your point. I just don't understand how it is so weak to kill someone with a bow and arrow when this was a big part of their armies. To me I think Paris out smarted Achilles. Achilles should've been smarter and understood that no matter how strong he is with the sword he can still be killed. There are no rules to war and the enemy will do what it takes to kill him. There should be no dishonor in that.
ReplyDeleteYeah i can see where you're coming from Caleb but I think his cowardness in the begining of the movie overshadows him in the end when he was trying to avenge Hectors death, which Achilles did for his cousin which ended with Hector dying creating a circle of events. I do think Greece valued sword fighting more but i don't think Paris is dishonerable for killing him with an arrow. I definately agree with Christian.
ReplyDeleteHomeric ideas were very important. I think the movie shows that honor is very important to both societies. Greece goes to war with Troy to get Helen back, also the huge guy wanted to kill Orlando Bloom to gain his honor back. I think that honor was very important in both societies
ReplyDeleteI do not think Greed or selfishness were attributes that Homeric Greek culture found desirable. This can be seen as the Trojans lost the war, lost their prince Hector, and had their city destroyed, all because Paris was greedy for Helen, another man's wife. How selfish can you get to cause a war and all those deaths just to have another mans wife, i mean really!!
ReplyDeleteThe most obvious showing of dishoner was when paris unfairly killed achilles. This was not fair at all to achilles who i am sure would have acted very differently in paris's shoes. He would have gave paris a chance to fight back. He would have done this to increase his arete. Another example of dishoner was when achilles carried hector around the walls after he killed him. An example of an honerary action would be when hector agrees to fight achilles. He is brave and couragous through the entire fight. I believe homer created hector for an example of the perfect person for his ideals.
ReplyDeletePretty much Hector is AWESOME and the most honorable character in the whole movie!
ReplyDeleteOh, and Mr. Lefors, to answer whether or not Homer potrayed Paris as the hero when he stays and fights in Troy, I would almost say no. I think he just didnt want to be outshown by his brother, Hector, who went out to fight Achilles, even though he knew he was going to die. I think in the end, Achillies was potrayed as the hero becuse even though he was dying he was worried about his lover getting out of troy and being safe and was not bent on killing Paris, even though he had just shot him with his Sissy bow and arrow three of four times. Dont get me wrong, I think archery is awesome, but its kinda the cowardly way to fight, just like what Caleb said. He also went out the Hero according to the Spartans, because He didnt come home a coward, instead he came home on his Shield.
ReplyDeleteBack to Achilles and Paris...
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree that there is honor in killing a man. The way Paris killed Achilles was not dishonorable. As for the wits involved, Paris knew his own city better and knew where the more strategic defensive places would be. This was not really logic or reasoning but familiarity of homecourt. I don't think that Achilles thought he was completely unstoppable (the conversation with his mother). I'm sure he thought highly of himself because he was an excellent soldier.
I agree with everyone that said that military strength was important in Greece and that it is one of the main ideas portrayed in Homeric ideals. It is shown in Troy because in both Greek societies the best fighters were the most respected and honored although Achilles shows very little respect when he drags Hector's body around after he kills him in battle. Also after Hector is killed it seems as if all of Troy grief the loss of their best, most honored warrior Hector
ReplyDeleteHomer presents in the Iliad that a time of war, was a time to earn glory. Many men served in the war, simply for the opportunity to display "arete." The desire to be superior was the driving force between many soldiers willingness to fight. This directly relates to Greek social classes. For example, the aristocrats always wanted to better their lives. They wanted to be more powerful than, not only the poor farmers, but also the other aristocrats. Homer believed that man always sought to better their lives, in an attempt to be fulfilled.
ReplyDeleteI think that Homer wrote that Paris stayed in Troy to show that even in a militaristic time there are different sides to a person. Paris was afraid/ cowerdly in the begining but in the end he killed achilles and wouldn't leave his dad to fight alone. I don't know that he was a "hero" neccisarly but he was an important character in learning about Greek values.
ReplyDeleteI agree with aerhart, the Illiad could be a metaphor for the actual class struggle between the aristocrats and those who were below them. Could Paris and Achilles be represented as social classes as well?
ReplyDeleteHomeric ideals were clearly portrayed in the movie Troy. Homer valued the strength and power, which were displayed through war and battle achievements. Achilles was a great warrior, he was idolized in his society. His mother pushed him to go to fight for his country. In Greek society mothers wanted their sons to die in battle, because it was an honor. The whole idea of "arete" was extremley important to Homer. Success was seen through achievements. Your entire worth was based on how well you did in battle. Family is extremley important also. Homer believed in Oikos. Family first. Achilles would not fight for his country until his cousin was murdered. Being cowardice was looked down upon. In Troy, Paris was obviously looked down upon, even his women disapproved!!
ReplyDeleteKalina, I agree with your point that archery does take skill and large amounts of precision. But I still feel that there is absolutely no honor in killing someone who doesn't even have a chance to fight back. I think Paris was looking to prove to his father that he was worthy, but he knew he would not win in a weaponry battle against the skillful Achilles. Instead of risking his life for his city-state, he merely stood off to the side and took a cheap shot.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Mr. LeFors Question "...did Homer ultimately portray Paris as the hero when he stays in Troy and fights???", I think that Homer purposely left that decision to the readers. My interpretation of Paris's portrayal as a hero in the end of the movie is mixed. On one hand, i believe Paris to be a hero because he helped others escape and killed Achilles (probably on accident, knowing Paris he probably didn't intentionally hit Achilles's ankle). On the other hand, Paris's cowardliness throughout the movie is unforgettable, with a couple heroic acts not being able to make up for his previous timidity, let alone his ability to grow facial hair (that by itself is inexcusable).
ReplyDeleteI belive that on the greeks side, almost everybody fought for either glory or power. Menelaus wanted his wife back which was a resonable reason but Agamemnon was only after the control of troy and power. while on the other side the Trojans were fighting for there land in a very honorable way (except for Paris who can't fight and should have died). And although many died ,like Hector, they were still hero's. King Priam was an honorable man but also a blind one, he did not listen t either of his sons which became the inevitable downfall of Troy. Achilles is a strange on, he acts as if he wont fight for Agamemnon because he is corrupt and greedy, but in the end Achilles becomes less honorable and more revengeful against the Trojans after Patroclus was killed on accident. The only main people i see being honorable, courageous, as well as smart is Hector and Odysseus. Hector is a strong, pwerful, but not power hungry fighter who fights in what he believes and protects his people. Odysseus is another good man who shows in honor in his wits. Since he himself is not as strong or skilled as others he has skills they don't, he uses his smarts to outsmart the Trojans through the Trojan horse.
ReplyDeleteHomeric Greek culture is pretty awesome. I liked the idea of the glory people could achieve from battles, that was clearly stated throughout the whole movie. Achilles is the man in the whole movie and everyone likes him and he had lots of honor. And no one like Paris because he runs away like a little baby when that one guy is about to kill him. Hector is also the man because he goes up against achilles knowing that he is an amazing fighter and through the whole fight never gives up.
ReplyDeleteHomer demonstrated that power and sucess were important. The Greeks couldnt allow the dishonor of helen being taken. They continued to fight and plot, ultimately allowing them to win the trojan war. I was however confused about Paris, he is weak and cowardly. Yet, he is able to kill the most feared and powerful ruler and survived the war. Why would the Gods let him survive if he was a coward
ReplyDeleteOf course the biggest importance to Homer was his ideal of Arete. In his view achievements of a person was seen through there power and strength. In the movie Troy I think that Achilles and Hector both show this. Achilles is a gifted killer and a powerful one at that. In the beginning I think his resentment towards Agamemnon shows a bit of unfaithfullness to Greece, i guess you could say, as being one of their best warriors and some describing him as "god-like" he won't fight in the war because he had his woman taken from him? He does show much of intellectual and physical excellence though throughout the movie. (What I found out today in class though, about his homosexuality or bisexuality was a bit depressing for me and my attitude towards him).
ReplyDeleteHector as well shows courage after he fights for his brother. He is a strong character through the entire movie and stays sturdy for Troy by fighting with all his might for his country. Before his death he shows the most strength out of anyone, knowing he is most likely going to die while fighting Achilles he still goes with pride as his whole city, including his wife, is watching him. And he puts up a good, intense fight too!
And my thoughts on Paris- Coward.
Even though he kills Achilles in the end, agreeing with Christian it is an honor to kill the most feared warrior he does it in the most cowardice way possible. Standing so far back where Achilles had no chance to fight back he killed him. LAME! Just because he loves Helen and wants to be with her he makes himself look so dumb by running away while fighting. Especially as his whole city is behind him basically yelling at him to keep fighting and die with pride for Troy. He started the whole war and no one seems to really point a finger at him.. If I was in Troy at the time I would get the biggest foam finger ever and point it at him and blame him and Helen for starting the whole thing. That's it!